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Deliver me from the Devil from - Brian Baker's Old Church

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peter aylmore
 
Joined in 2009
October 29, 2009, 7:22 pm

Briefly I have posted my story of finding Jesus in a Pentecostal church in Perth. I was a minister of the UPC Pentecostal church for a few years, I could not deal with my sexuality which I had been fighting all the time and serving God. I did not think the two together were possible, as I was always preached at that God Hates you for being Gay.

It is hard to write somethings in one posting.

I remember one day just waking up and resigned from my church. No reason, I just could not go on.

I was not being true to myself and God.

I later went and spoke to my Pastor and told him what had happened, he knew I “was ” gay” before I met Jesus. I struggled with this for 7 years, fearing God and asking why he had not changed me, change my mind. my thoughts. Yet i still had a deep desire and Love for God.

The minister took me to a church which was called Rhema now Riverview, in Perth, a Pentecostal church which has several thousand members. Back then 23 years ago it was considered a large church.

The Pastor of that church and some elders, took me to a room and prayed with such fervor and devotion and such physical force over me to rebuke the devil out of me. This I recall went on for over an hour, I was a physical wreck, being shaken and pushed and people constantly screaming Jesus deliver him.This was humiliating to me and stressful. It brings up such painful memories now as I write, that I felt that I was a failure in the eyes of God. I wondered what had I done? My love for Jesus was strong, my faith in God was there. I still felt the same, “i still had feelings for a man”. This church and its members did this again for me a week later, rebuking the devil in me,

telling me I never was filled with the “Spirit of God” as God’s spirit would not dwell in an unclean vessel. Again the whole process was performed, I was even more distraught than before, leaving lost, betrayed that I thought God hated me with a vengance. I wandered for many years rejecting God. But something all the time was crying out to Jesus, I still loved Him. It has taken me years to Love Him again, when He still Loved me all the time, and never gave up on Me.

YOU KNOW WHAT THE SADEST THING IS ONLY 2 WEEKS AGO I FOUND OUT THIS SAME PASTOR, 3 YEARS AFTER PERFORMING THIS “PRAYER”

OF GETTING THE DEVIL OUT OF ME, LEFT HIS CHURCH AS HE SAID HE

WAS A HOMOSEXUAL. Brian Baker of River View Church in Perth. It was in the West Australian Newspaper for all to read. I did not know this.

The past two weeks I sunk to a low level of self esteem, for the hurt and loss of over 20 years of turning against God, because I was prayed over by a man who nearly destroyed my Faith in God. I had to find my way to God the hard way, and you know what I am glad that I did. Don’t let any man turn you away from the Love of God.

I asked an old Pentecostal friend of mine last week, was this true about Brian Baker, and they said it was common knowledge, no one told me, I did not know. He hid behind God as a “Closet Gay” man, who condemned people for being Gay. He has to answer for that.

Please understand I don’t blame Brian Baker one bit for my life, I was bruised spiritually by him and people telling me that The Spirit of God never was in my Life, because I was gay.

Don’t let any man tell you that God does not Love you.

Don’t let any man tell you that you do not have the Love of Jesus in your Life.

….All men fail, but Jesus never “Glory to His Name.”

Please not this is not a hate tirade against Brian Baker, just my experience by a Church and a minister acting in the name of God. Considering that he came out and said he was Homosexual 3 years after my ordeal.

I do hope this does not offend people. It is meant for you to find your Faith in God not others who condemn so readily.

from peter from Perth.


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Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
October 31, 2009, 1:04 pm

thanks Peter…..I dont think your post is attacking Brian Baker…..it seems like you are just telling the story.


Brian was just like you and I…….gay men struggling to reconcile what is true about ourselves and our relationship with God. We were afraid to tell our secret for fear of rejection……and worse….that we could no longer serve God. Some of us have been able to reconcile both. Some have reconciled their sexuality but not the faith issue.


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man in confusion
 
Joined in 2009
November 1, 2009, 4:12 pm

Hello Peter from Perth..Hoping you are well..God is always our source of power and YES for relying always on god..I guess that Brian tried to help you and used his best of faith that time to help you..Look at the intention..Yes, we all fall and god loves us to connect and help each.I am in confusion too cos bible says there are people whom were washed and sanctified BUT i do not know how does that apply to us..I hope by faith we will reach that and help each other..I love the service of helping each. By the way we are not gays, hut we are people with same gender attraction..Love your inside Peter and you Anthony..Remember to be always simple and positive..Lazzy


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Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
November 1, 2009, 6:44 pm

I think we can all look back and see things we regretted doing. Like Brian…..we mostly operated out of a desire to help others but also ignorance. Some of the things I said and did I did with the best of intentions…..but today I know better.


this is the same for 5 former ex-gay leaders in Australia.


http://alifeofunlearning.blogspot.com/2007/08/five-of-australias-ex-gay-leaders.html


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IanJ
 
Joined in 2009
December 14, 2009, 11:14 pm

We all do things that we later regret.

My son wrote to me and said ‘you always taught us that it was wrong’ [to be gay].

I had never explicitly said this to my children, but between the church we chose to attend, the school they were sent to, the comments from others that were never challenged etc. I can see how they came to the conclusion that they did. And now I have to wait for them to come around and accept me.


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frogger
 
Joined in 2005
December 17, 2009, 8:39 am

We all get it wrong. Thats my experience and not to get judgemental or angry at people. Just to let them be and forgive.


I dont think your post sounds angry towards Brian at all.


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pingtimeout
 
Joined in 2009
January 7, 2010, 8:54 am

This was my old church too – as far as I know the info about Brian Baker wasn’t in the West Australian but it was an open secret towards the end of the 90s (to put a timescale on this, he left the church in April 1989). I grew up in the church, and came out in 1996, and I heard he was frequenting the Court Hotel in mid-late 1997 from another fellow ex-Rhema person. (It was a shock to me at that time.)


I think the amount of damage the church did to a lot of young people in and around it is something its leaders will have to live with… I know SO many gay people who started off in Children’s church at Rhema or who went to the church school (RCA) and it’s been unnecessarily hard for us to deal with it. I was taught that certain things were Godly things and other things were worldly things (Much like the halal and haram concept in Islam) and to indulge even slightly the latter was to move away from God, or to disfellowship from God. I was conditioned to believe gay people had gender issues, were most likely child abusers and at high risk of AIDS. This started for me as an “intervention” of sorts when I was 11 years old, and was a continual message being pumped out. Try that balanced against rather specific attractions to similarly-aged friends (never acted upon but no less real) and it’s not hard to see it was 7 very scary and confusing years of my life.


I not only can relate to the OP’s one-time feeling of “lost, betrayed that I thought God hated me with a vengance [...] wandered for many years rejecting God” – but I know many others too. When I left the church at the age of 17 (for unrelated reasons, but basically that I couldn’t reconcile what the church was saying with what the church was doing by that time in its history), and *especially* when I realised I must be gay… oh my god, it took me like 3 months to just calm down and get back to any normal sort of living. I felt horrible, sinful, like something was wrong with me. And – well you know this but I’ll say it anyway – there wasn’t anything wrong with me. I had done nothing wrong. I was the way I was created by God. I don’t know why I was this particular way, but God evidently intends us to treat it exactly the same way as anything else we get given – with respect and dignity for ourselves and our fellow man. I’m now in my 30s and, yeah, I have done things I have regretted in my journey to get here, but I’m here.


You are NOT alone. I really hope that you know this. And also, that the message coming from the church was not a Christian one, it is not one that can be found in the Bible, it was not the word of God, it was just some well meaning but ignorant/conservative people’s view of how things should be. Like you I do not blame the church for this. I honestly believe they believed what they were doing was right. (The revelations about Brian Baker’s newfound atheism actually convince me of this further.) But it took me to read the Bible the whole way through at age 20 to realise that the message the church had given us would be like, I don’t know, if you took a good novel or the Star Wars story and started putting random out-of-context snippets together in a consecutive order until it tells the story you want to tell. And a lot of people might well believe it, especially if it’s well-packaged and attractive.


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Ann Maree
Chief Moderator
Joined in 2008
January 7, 2010, 5:37 pm

Hi Peter


I’m so sorry for what happened to you. Just know that like pingtimeout says, you are definitely not alone. It’s also good to recognise the cult qualities in the church you went to and perhaps read up on cults to fully understand what happened and the far reaching, damaging effects that those churches can have. I also attended a cult for many years and the experience left me with long term scarring and I was affected in ways I couldn’t even imagine. Being traumatised like that requires more than a forgiving heart towards those that perpetrated the abuse. I mean, I agree that there are well meaning people who act out of ignorance, believing they are right. And yes, we all make mistakes because none of us are perfect. I’ve certainly done things I regret. However, there are issues of psychological, spiritual and physical abuse that need healing, perhaps over the long term through counselling, reading, talking with those who have also survived cults or some other means.


I wish you well as you move forward.


Blessings,


Ann Maree


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hereiam
 
Joined in 2009
January 10, 2010, 3:10 am

Hey Peter,


It makes me think that maybe your situation helped Brian to discover himself. knowing what happened to you and your outcome in some way helped him to cope with the same himself. And maybe he used your struggle as his strengh to pull through it himself.


So maybe your pain has become his gain. And how that he is outted and dealing with all the same stuff you went through I’m sure he only has apologies for you now. what does that mean to you now? Probably not much, But you should touch base with him if you feel up to it and offer your hand of support. we should all be here for each other. Including those who have hurt us in the past. especially those!! if we dont forgive and accept those people then we are just as ignorant as them!


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Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
January 10, 2010, 12:45 pm

I believe Brian might be writing his story……which would be good. ….and then we get the entire background.


there are quite a number of former Pentecostal ministers who are now out. Not all are in a good place though. Some are still very much traumatised by their experience…..some are still very bitter……some no longer want to talk with or have anything to do with people of faith….even LGBT people…..its too painful.


Getting through the maze and finding resolution at all levels is a miracle in itself.


Its been great to reconnect with Des Penny again after 30 years……I believe he may have been the first to come out in the Assemblies of God……I’m sure there are more…..but we might never know about them.


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Ann Maree
Chief Moderator
Joined in 2008
January 10, 2010, 1:25 pm

Hi avb


I’d be interested in reading Brian’s story. I feel for those traumatised ministers you speak of and can understand why it might be just too painful to associate with either Christians or the LGBTIQ community. It saddens me because I hate to think of people being separated by pain, hate, unforgiveness etc.


I agree very much with your statement:


“Getting through the maze and finding resoltion at all levels is a miracle in itself”. There’s a lot to process and I think having a forgiving attitude or allowing forgiveness to occur is only part of dealing with the layers.


It’s good that you’ve had contact with Des Penny. I don’t know him but it’s nice to hear that some ministers and ex ministers are able to connect with you and others in our community.


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Brian Baker
 
Joined in 2010
January 16, 2010, 4:01 pm

Hi Peter


I discovered this website just a few days ago when I was overseas – now I am back in Perth. I was just looking for comments/info about my book ‘From Faith to Reason’ and ‘Brian Baker’


First of all, I am extremely sorry that you experienced a traumatic ‘deliverance’ session 23 years ago when your Pastor took you to Rhema for prayer concerning your problems with your sexuality. Although it was a long time ago – I am confident in saying that I was not ‘the Pastor’ who was involved with that session. I had 4 or 5 full time Pastors working with me during those years and I know one who believed he had a ‘Deliverance ministry’ but he also knew that I did not agree with the extreme methods often used in Pentecostal churches in praying for people to be free from demonic oppression. This is possibly the reason I did not hear about your prayer meeting with the Pastor and others at the time. I had been witness to an equally sickening ‘deliverance’ performed by my Pastor when I attended a Pentecostal church in New Zealand which we were attending in 1972-77 – It was one of the reasons which caused us to leave that church and we decided to go to USA and attend Rhema Bible Training Centre in Tulsa.


The question of my own sexuality had also haunted me for much of my life. At school I was attracted to guys also during my National service 2 years with the British Army although my actual sexual activity with those guys was very limited. this was back in 1954-56 and there was virtually no one available to give advice to young men or women who had questions concerning their sexuality. The very few times I asked questions from older friends or others was I was told that it was just a phase which would pass – I would grow out of it – all I needed was a good woman! The professional opinion at the time was largely that Homosexuality was a mental disorder and that the only ‘cure’ available was usually ‘electric shock treatment’ or a prolonged period in a Mental Institution – neither was appealing to me! Same sex relationships and activity was illegal and many ‘caught in the act’ were sent to prison.


I took the accepted course which was to be married – I was just 21 when I married the girl I had been friends with for about two years. We did produce two children but there was never the passion which I was sure should exist between two people in a sexual experience – I concluded that my wife was frigid but most likely I was just lacking enough enthusiasm. We divorced after seven years but just a year later my ex-wife asked me to have the two children – then aged 5 and 7 – By this time I had a number of brief very vanilla sexual relationships during occasional visits to London.

As far as I knew there were no Gay clubs or saunas – I discovered just two Gay pubs in London but I was usually hesitant in accompanying strangers to their homes, so my activity was very limited. I had not intended to marry again but I was faced with the problem of being almost totally responsible for my two young children. Knowing It would be impossible for me to look after them alone especially as I was fully occupied in developing my business. I searched for a housekeeper/surrogate mother but after numerous responses to my advertisement I interviewed an attractive lady also recently divorced but with a 4 year old daughter. The lady was almost the perfect answer to my problem – she was a qualified nurse and we immediately seemed to get on well together. After just six weeks we decided to get married and at first the relationship went well – we were a family now with 3 children and a year later our baby arrived. I won’t go into all the details here but five years later we were on the verge of divorce. It was at that time that some old school friends and their wives came to counsel us and encouraged us to go to their church. The outcome of all that was that we were ‘Born Again’ and decided to sell the business and our properties and emigrate to New Zealand where I had previously visited. We joined a new local church and were soon involved helping on a daily basis with the ministry and then to Rhema in Tulsa. During all this time I completely suppressed my homosexual tendencies. I had been told that God would deal with any problem and although I had been ‘delivered’ through the ministry of my Pastor and also that I had spent many days in fasting and in prayer – the thoughts were still there.


From Tulsa we started our work of ministry in Perth and from a small number attending our first meetings within a few years we had grown to be the largest single congregation in the City and one of the largest in Australia. I resigned from ministry in 1989 when our marriage finally failed – It was incorrectly stated in an article in the West Australian that my marriage ended because I had confessed to my son that I was homosexual. Yes – I told my son about my homosexuality a few years after I resigned but it was never a factor or the cause of the divorce and he had not said that it was. I received an apology from the West Australia for this assumption.


After my resignation I came to terms with my sexuality and decided that I should spend the rest of my life (then aged 53) living how I wanted to live rather than how others thought I should live! I do not make an issue of my sexuality either in my day to day life or in my book ‘From Faith to Reason’ – I did not want the book to be primarily judged on the basis of my sexual preferences and my change from a fundamentalist Christian to a rationalist, realist, skeptic and atheist had absolutely nothing to do with this.


Peter and others who have written concerning you comments – I hope I have answered your questions satisfactorily – please write your comments to me if you wish.


Kind regards and best wishes


Brian Baker


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Ann Maree
Chief Moderator
Joined in 2008
January 16, 2010, 5:21 pm

Hi Brian


Welcome to this site. It’s great to have you here. I really appreciate that you have had the courage and taken the time to share some of your story with us. It sounds like a complex and difficult journey, as with so many of ours.


Are you British? I lived in London for 6 years and miss it. When were you last there?


I’m interested to know more about your transition from pentecostal Christian to atheist if you feel like writing.


All the best to you,


Ann Maree


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hereiam
 
Joined in 2009
January 16, 2010, 8:11 pm

Hey Brian,


thanks for letting us know you have found our site. It means a lot to some of the people here that you have commented. the natural response would be to hide away and avoid such confrontation. I’m happy you have opened the channel for communication here.


Thanks for sharing your story too. its good to hear it first hand rather then the gossip chain.


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pingtimeout
 
Joined in 2009
January 17, 2010, 1:31 pm

Hi Brian,


Indeed – agree with the two comments above mine – thanks very much for having the courage to post openly on here, I for one much appreciate it. As mentioned above I also used to go… you’d probably remember me and my dad.


And I can confirm what you said re the end of your time at the church – I was at the 30(I think?) April 1989 sermon where you announced your departure and you said there that it was basically due to the end of your marriage. Essentially, and I respected you for saying this, something along the lines of when you preach you have to live what you preach and if you can’t, then you have the obligation to step down.


I was actively involved in the church until the end of 1995, and I personally heard about your sexuality in around July 1997, long after I’d left the church, from a fellow ex-Rhema gay guy who had seen you at the Court Hotel, so I don’t think it was in regular circulation at Rhema even by then. I’d already told Peter this privately a few days ago but since you’ve mentioned it here I thought I’d echo it here.


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Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
January 17, 2010, 1:42 pm

Hi Brian……welcome……it means a lot to have you here……and thanks for the apology and also setting the record straight……I’m sure many will appreciate that.


as you may be aware……I am familiar as with the way the truth gets twisted about who we are and what we have done. Places like this is an opportunity to put the record straight.


I have actually tried to connect with you several times for a chat and advice…….but not sure if the messages were passed on. never mind….you found us.


congrats on the book……i know what it is like to write of course and all that is involved. I take my hat off to anyone who has written and is published.


We have a growing network now of former pentecostal ministers who are now out about their sexuality which is refreshing.


BTW…..would you feel comfortable cutting and pasting the section above which is about your journey and creating it as a separate story in this section. I’m sure there would be many who would find it helpful reading it and it will get lost in this thread.


up to you my friend.


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Brian Baker
 
Joined in 2010
January 17, 2010, 2:11 pm

Hi Ann


Thank you for your kind comments – Yes I was born in Kent UK 1936 but left in 1972 to New Zealand and then after USA Bible Training Centre to Perth WA. I have dual citizenship British – Australian. I frequently visited UK while my mother was alive – she died aged 99 – 6 years ago. I also visited my brother and spent a few days in London 2008.


You asked about my journey from fundamentalist Christian to atheist – I have published a book “From Faith to Reason” which I wrote over a period of a few years – details are available on vividpublishing.com.au


Thanks again and I hope to hear from you again


Best wishes


Brian


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Ann Maree
Chief Moderator
Joined in 2008
January 17, 2010, 2:39 pm

Hi Brian


You’re welcome. Kent is a lovely part of the world. I do love so much of the English countryside and miss it. I was last in London at the end of 2001 so I bet a lot has changed in that time.


I will be interested to have a read of your book.


Kindest Regards,


Ann Maree


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Brian Baker
 
Joined in 2010
January 17, 2010, 3:10 pm

Hi Anthony


Thank you for your message – I appreciate your comments and understanding.


I should not have any objection to posting my first reply on the section you have suggested especially if you think it will be of benefit to others. I am also happy to answer questions and to give any advice or help based on my life’s experience.


Unfortunately, I have not received any previous messages from you from any source – I am pleased that we have contact now and look forward to future correspondence with you


Thank you again


Kind regards


Brian


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Brian Baker
 
Joined in 2010
January 17, 2010, 8:30 pm

Hi Pingtimeout


Thank you for your message and comments. I am sorry that you also had a prolonged period of confusion which was without doubt increased by your attendance during those years at Rhema. I am also aware that after Phil took over there was a definite attempt to ‘convert’ gays from their lifestyle – this is something I did not ever institute when I was Pastor.

I believe the attitude there has changed in recent times.


During my time of ministry I strongly believed that being Gay is not a choice as most Christians claim and I simply had to accept the teaching that homosexuality was sinful and therefore was up to the individual to suppress. This was the only way that I could deal with myself and continue in the ministry. Had I been unable to do that I would have resigned immediately – thankfully when my wife decided she wanted to leave the ministry I had the opportunity also to quit and start a new life. I had not sought to end the marriage and I had envisaged continuing for many more years. Those first years after my resignation were difficult and it took me much time to get rid of feelings of guilt and frustration. I say more about all that in my book.


I am pleased for your contact and can only speculate at this time who you may be but I hope you will keep contact and I assure you that I shall always be happy to answer any questions you may have.


Best wishes and thanks again


Brian


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