I think this is a worthy question to explore and seek understanding and wisdom from a sociological and theological viewpoint. In todays society we are bombarded with messages, both directly and indirectly , about sex in the media. You can’t escape it. The temptation to partake is always there, regardless of our marital status or sexual orientation.

We need to consider the fact that sexuality is part of our identity ie who we are. The challenge is to develop a healthy and sustainable framework, based on sound theological principles, that works for us individually and is not a “one-size-fits-all” approach.

Our beliefs and values should also form an integral part of that framework. Values such as dignity, integrity and respect can all be found somewhere in the bible. Once we have established this framework and link it with our beliefs and values, I think we can move beyond the point of divide between gay and straight, single and married.

Too often we compromise and/or sabotage our beliefs and values for something that we perceive will bring us happiness and/or satisfaction, however temporary that may be. We have all possibly done it at some stage in our lives. I like to think that we all have an in-built filter, one purpose of which is to determine what (or who) we let in or block out in our lives.

As a single gay guy, I’m especially prone to certain messages of a sexual nature. Messages that would label and/or stereotype me IF I was to go down that path. As a christian growing up but now no longer attending church, with the help of freedom2b[e], I have come to understand that I can integrate my faith and sexuality based on sound choices and mutual respect of others who may or may not agree with me.

Would love to hear other’s views on this most important topic

Saludos

I believe the same moral standards apply in Scripture whether a person is gay or straight. Yes it is absolutely fine to be gay and Christian.

For me the key was a study of the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures of the Bible. I used exactly the same lexicons as I used when studying for the Baptist ministry and I found that what was in most translations was not what was in the original languages. In some cases they had actually inserted words that didn’t even exist in the original languages just to help people be homophobic. That is just totally unacceptable.

In brief – There is not one verse in scripture that says God destroyed Sodom because of homosexuality or that it even occurred there.

If people quote Lev 18:22 and 20:13 to condemn homosexual practice, they have to explain how they obey Lev 19:37, 20:22, Gal 3:10 and 5:3 and obey every single Old Testament law. They do not get a choice. God Himself says people cannot go through the OT law putting ticks and crosses on the bits they like and the bits they don’t.

1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10 hinges on the translation of the Gk arsenokoitai which was a new word Paul invented. Even the translators of the NIV couldn’t make up their mind on what it meant as they translated it as “homosexual offenders” in 1 Cor and “perverts” in 1 Tim. These are two very different things. The word for homosexuals in NT times was arrenomanes and that doesn’t appear in the NT anywhere. It is perfectly acceptable to translate it as “male prostitutes” in both places.

I believe Rom 1 when taken in context only applies to gays (us) when they have known the Lord and rejected Him and worshipped idols. Rom 1 says “therefore” – “because of this”. Then Paul talks about those who have had a heterosexual orientation, rejected that and practiced homosexuality (notice nothing about orientation). How can Paul or anyone accuse gays of abandoning something they have never had?

There are two things in scripture which are against nature. In Rom 1, Paul talks about those who have known the Lord and rejected Him, and worshipped idols, had a straight orientation, rejected that and PRACTICED homosexuality. The second is men with long hair in 1 Cor 11:14. People MUST be consistent and treat both the same.

The WHOLE POINT of Rom 1 is Rom 2:1 “You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgement on someone else”

I wrote a paper on this and in the first month 350 gays wrote in to say they planned to take their own life over this and had decided against it. That is what God did. I didn’t have much to do with it really. We matter to God.

I strongly support gay marriage so long as Rom 1 does not apply when taken in context (see above). Intimacy within gay marriage is a wonderful way of communicating the love of two people for each another. I believe sex outside marriage is wrong whether people are gay or straight. Exclusivity is a hallmark of true and genuine love.

I too have left the church permanently.

I hope this is helpful.

De facto relationships are recognized in Australia now whether they are heterosexual or same sex. That is one way in which we can, for the time being commit ourselves in a recognized relationship. It’s not the same as marriage, at all, but it is better than nothing and seriously as I read it, marriages in the Bible were very like what we today call “de facto” there was no priest or church, or government papers to sign: “Adam went into his wife and knew her and they became man and wife.” That’s basically what happens in a de facto relationship, isn’t it? Two people commit themselves to each other and the law recognizes them.

I have filled in several forms recently where I named Sandra as my ‘spouse’ and no one has batted an eyelid. It’s just that one last stubborn little sticking point we need to surmount.

As for the question raised in the original post, I believe that the Bible is clear. If you’re single, you should abstain from sexual intercourse. Sex should take place within a nurturing, respectful, loving and stable relationship as an expression of that bond between the couple.

Oops! We seem to have gone off onto two different streams of discussion – which was not my intention. And all comments are valuable.

My main issue for discussion relates to “how then should we behave” (in areas of sexual itimacy) ??

[ We are NOT talking about "married" people - i.e., including same-sex committed living partnerships. And we have agreed that the same biblical rules apply to straight & gay singles. ]

So, what does the evangelical interpretation of the Bible demand of single (unmarried) Christian people? [Maz probably expresses that traditional view most clearly.]

It sort of seems to me that we have moved away from previous held biblical views – especially, but not exclusively, for gay evangelical Christians. But, we have moved without saying so, or why. And we seem to not want to discuss it.

If the traditional view still holds, then not only do we need to continue to help each other come to terms with holding onto faith whilst accepting our gayness, but we also need help each other (well, the singles amongst us) to understand that traditional biblical code of behaviour .. .. .. and the implications (if any) for breaching that ??

[ By the way, MRG, as a former youth pastor, and in light of your current interest, I'd be interested in how you would handle that in the context of how you handled general sexual stuff amongst the young people you pastored. ]

I appreciate all that had been said so far. Cheers. [The original post was sent from Tallinn; this one from Riga.]

For those who are interested here are the two emails forestgrey has mentioned that appeared in my recent newsletter.

He Loves Me Not

|(

Dear Mr. Venn-Brown,

Your book came up on automated suggested reading on my Amazon.com account. I went to your website and pre-viewed the book, I might add that with the pre-view I was very excited about your book, purchased it and impatiently awaited it’s arrival. The day it arrived I sat down and read it cover to cover.

Just a little background here, my Father is a high level evangelical minister and I was in Church the Sunday following my birth, every Sunday morning, Sunday night and of course Wednesday night and any and every other event that they had planned up until the time I left home ON MY 18th BIRTHDAY. My parents LIVE what they believe, being the Gay son in this environment is not ever going to be accepted or condoned. Graduating from high School at age 15 I was shipped off to the Church College with the schools age admission rules overturned due to the standing that my Father and Mother have in the church organization. I was asked to leave that school when some gay reading materials were found when they searched my room.

The Dean, who was also good friend of my Father for some 30 years prior” picked up the phone in front of me and said ” You know how far your Father and I go back, so I’m going to call him and ask him what were going to do about this.” I reached up and yanked the phone out of his hand and informed him that

#1. My Dad will get in his car and come here and that will take him 10 hours and I will not be here when he get’s here and you nor anybody _____ else can stop me. Thus ruining the relationship with my parents.

# 2. Given my parents positions in the organization they could not live with this embarrassment.

#3 and lastly, when I signed the contract with this_____ _____ school, who I now owe over $4000, I was a minor making it not legal and/or binding, therefore HELL will freeze before you ever receive 1 red cent from me if you call them. I was then asked to gather my things get off of their campus and NEVER return. WHAT CHRIST LIKE BEHAVIOR!

I currently am in a relationship of 14 years, I consider myself a Gay Christian. Many years ago I came out to my Mother at which time I was sworn to secrecy about my lifestyle from my Father by her, at which time she stated “You may take yourself to Hell but you will not take me with you.”

Now for your book! It was my hope that your book would be one that I could give to my parents and say ” Look Here, read this!” However; due to the graphic nature in which you wrote your book, that could never happen. Not only that, but due to your explicitness in describing your extramarital affairs you not only affirmed the way in which the Pentecostal Churches view homosexuality but you substantiated it.

Then after which you have the audacity to ask the Pentecostal Church I.e. Assemblies of God to accept it and your behaviour. Now mind you my life situations and the Gay experiences that I have had could read exactly like the pages of your book. However; I am not asking the Church to condone and/or accept it. I do not mean to be negative to you, but it is my heartfelt feeling that God gave you the position and the opportunity to make positive changes in the view of Homosexuality within the Pentecostal Church’s and yet you choose via your book to turn it into no more than an Explicit Gay Romance Novel.

In my opinion, God gave you the opportunity and the platform to build a bridge between those of us struggling with being Gay and wanting to serve Christ. You had the opportunity to show the Church’s that A. It is not a choice B. That homosexuals can serve God & Christ just like anyone else. Instead you choose to flaunt the Gay bar scene and the promiscuous side of the gay lifestyle and yet at the same time asking the Church to approve of it.

Now Sir, I do not mean to judge for I am far from without SIN! However; it is my hope and my prayer that given the life experiences that you have, you will take the opportunity to re-write your book and focus on the fact that you can be a Homosexual and serve God at the same time. It is my opinion that given the high position that you held as an Evangelist within the Assemblies of God and the fact that you followed the part of your nature as you felt it.

You above most peoples could make an impact within the Gay community and it’s relationship with God and the Church, not to mention the Church’s view on homosexuality.

Perhaps my expectations of your book, life and ministries were over exaggerated within my own mind, however; upon reading the exerts from your book reviews prior to purchase, I felt finally “Here is a Man of God that is and has struggled with the same sexual identity problems that I have had”. For you see I have been in numerous relationships with women just trying to fit the norm, but always returning to my true desire that of men.

Please do not look upon the negative side of this e-mail for that is truly not my intention, to hurt you with words and/or to judge you. I just really feel that given your life circumstances (Not much different than my own, except I have never been in the pulpit) you have the ability to be a VOICE between the Church and Gays that want to serve Christ the world over.

I know that you can receive 100 e-mails with positive response and 1 with a negative and that 1 is the one that will eat upon you soul. So that said, one more time don’t go to the negative.

Anyway, I hope this finds you and yours doing well. I wish you the very best that life has to offer and I hope that you will take my e-mail with the utmost positive criticism.

Name withheld and identifying details removed.

It may have helped if he read this first

She Loves Me

0:)

Dear Tony

I have just read your book, It was wonderful. I was a teenager in the mid 80′s and was involved with XXXXX Church in Melbourne for a few years doing all the Youth Alive stuff. I was in Sydney the night you preached at the first rally at Town Hall and later the Hordern Pavilion. I loved the music everything and hung out to hear you speak. Whenever I heard you were coming to our local church to preach I would make sure I got there early so I got a good seat, your passion was something I admired.

Then in late 1980′s my parents gave me an ultimatum either leave the church or they would have me admitted into the psychiatric section in the hospital (I had become fanatical in their opinion and it wasn’t healthy). So with a heavy heart I went. The funny thing was that when I left there was only 1 person who bothered to keep in contact with me and that is my husband. Everyone I held important and dear deserted me as I had deserted them.

In the early 90′s I married and began my family and assumed my sister would do the same. Then the bombshell came when she said she no longer believed in God and came out as a lesbian. By this time we had moved and I was involved with the Baptist church (more conservative although still not what my atheist parents wanted). As I shared with my so called friends about my sister their reaction was to “cut her off, to teach her right from wrong”. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t care what they told me as my opinion was; I don’t talk about what goes on behind my bedroom door and neither does she. She was still the same person as the day before she told me: I just knew something else about her.

Then my first marriage fell apart and my drug/alcohol dependent husband left and within a few months I started to see XXXX and fell pregnant. Ooooh what a sin. The men in the church gave XXXX a hard time and the women became cold towards me and my children. They expected me to stay in a “bad marriage” cos till death do us part.

Life today is wonderful. My 10 year old son who has so many gay traits. The older kids are sometime embarrassed by him and his femininity. But, if thats the way he is who cares as long as he is a decent human being thats all any parent can ask.

I look at my years in the church with no anger because at the end of the day the only one I am accountable to is my God. There is only a sadness but that has lessened as time goes on.

Thank you for the honesty of your book. I did hear rumours over the years, and it was lovely to hear your side of the story.

When I used to hear you preach, you would at times smile my way, but I always thought you were too good for me to speak to and I was not worthy.

It nice to see you’re human.

Take Care

Name withheld and identifying details removed.

Hi forestgrey,

This is a great topic and worth exploring in depth. And I could write heaps, but I’ll add just a few brief points that should help tell a bit of my belief and practice in terms of sexual morality.

* I think it’s important to highlight that we are talking about LGBT people of faith in this discussion. Those of no/different faith will have no/a different set of values and no group has any right to force their values on another.

* As a pastor, I’m talking about faith in Jesus and expressing that faith through our lives as best we can, recognising that we’re not perfect and stuff up repeatedly. That goes for gay and straight alike.

* Jesus taught that there will be times that we need to “deny ourselves” and “take up our crosses”. He also taught about living “life to the full”, but this involved living a life in service to God and in service to our neighbour. It wasn’t about trying to find a way to fulfil all of our own needs. This generally doesn’t go down too well in a consumeristic, individualistic culture.

* At creation, God said it wasn’t good for man to be alone. Thus we’re created for relationship. I believe that those that are called to live a life being single receive a special spiritual gift that enables them to do so. Singleness should never be legislated on a group of people.

* The sexual relationship is so intimate that the two involved are described as becoming one. Nowhere does the Bible say that when that relationship ends, the one becomes two. The one becomes two halves. Having repeated sexual relationships might bring some quick gratification, but over the long term, the continual giving of oneself to another can leave you hollow, searching for meaning. The search often leads to more sexual relationships, but this repeats the cycle.

* God is a God of restoration. When a sexual relationship that was genuinely entered into comes to an end, there is a lot of brokeness. It’s hard to feel whole when you’re a half. But God makes us whole and gives us a new start. I can’t speak for any of you, but I don’t know where I’d be if God wasn’t like that.

* Considering all of the above, and the biblical use of marriage as a metaphor of the love between God and the church, I think the sexual relationship is meant to be life long, with one person and no other. Celibacy, like singleness, should be seen as either a gift from God, or a personal choice, and should never be forced on a group of people. I know that currently the law doesn’t recognise LGBT marriages, but that doesn’t mean that God won’t. Call me old fashioned, but I think that if two people of faith are committed to life together, then vows should be taken before friends, family and God. (It’s only a matter of time before LGBT relationships are formally recognised btw)

* Faith is meant to be lived out in community. As are marriages. I’ve been married for nearly fifteen years now, and quite frankly there are times when it’s bloody hard. Everything within you screams “Get out!” because life looks greener on the other side. Temptation abounds everywhere. My wife and I have had our share of those times, and the thing that got us through was the friends and family that we trusted with our situation. They supported us, cared for us, prayed for us and kept us accountable. I love my wife now more than I ever have and she thinks I’m a decent sort of bloke too! But without our community, we wouldn’t have the loving home and family that we have.

I hope that gives a bit of background to where I’m coming from. In practice, it looks a bit different to most evangelical churches in that it means talking about sex and talking about it A LOT!! And while it’s uncomfortable for most when the discussion starts, after about 20 minutes the defences come down and we get to the heart of our questions and struggles.

Sexuality HAS to be part of our discipleship. If we’re to be followers of Jesus, we can’t simply pretend that we’re not sexual beings, nor can we ignore the overt sexuality that surrounds our every waking moment. Our young people have genuine questions and desperately need answers to satisfy their own curiosity and to stay an informed part of their peer groups. If we in the church refuse or neglect to talk frankly about these issues, our young people will seek answers from sources that might not be very helpful. For instance, if they’re wondering about oral sex and are too scared to ask what it is in the church setting, then they’re likely to ask a friend. One thing leads to another and, well, you know the rest.

So my approach has been to talk openly about sex and sexual issues in my churches so all people, young and old, feel free to talk about their sexuality. I want them to talk about it in the midst of a community that is doing it’s best to live like Jesus, with the hope that the answers received will reflect the intention God has for our sexuality. Yes, it means some boundaries when it comes to sex – not to be a kill joy, but to savour something special in the moment that it is given to somebody you have a deep love for and a lifelong commitment to.

The short answer is that I do encourage people to hold off entering into a sexual relationship until they are in a relationship that has been sealed with a covenant before God. I know it’s hard. I know we make lot’s of mistakes. But that doesn’t mean we should aim for it.

Specifically for the LGBT faith community, I think it’s even more important to strive to aim for this standard. One of the reasons that the heterosexual church community still refuse to allow gay people into their fellowship is because of the perceived promiscuity. I know it shouldn’t be like this, but the LGBT faith community need to live such Godly lives that others look at them and instead of criticising their sexuality, they instead admire the commitment to sexual purity, the desire to serve the poor, the ministry to the homeless and so on.

I hope I can help you achieve that in some small way…

Hi forestgrey and others

Thank you for a very thought provoking discussion.

I just have a few things to pick up on and add.

I think there is still lots of confusion when it comes to sexual morality and single people of faith. I don’t think the heterosexual biblical model is clear at all, let alone the LGBT one. A big part of that, as davidt has pointed out, is because no one is really sure of the original meanings of biblical words. So they just continue to add their own. When I was going to church, word like ‘licentiousness’, ‘promiscuity’, ‘immoral’, ‘impurity’ and the like were used to include anyone who practised sex outside marriage. At the time this included divorcees. Oh and the latter group were also called ‘adulterers’. Married people were quick to want to apply rules of celibacy to single people perhaps because it was easier than taking account for how they behaved within their own marriages. I knew of people who married simply to have sex which is hardly treating marriage or the other person in the sacred way that God would want. So sexual and intimate morality needs to be looked at, not just for single people, whether gay/straight, but for ALL people. I really think confusion abounds in this area across the board in faith communities.

I think the way we define sex also needs to be looked at. Meg suggested that it’s best if sexual intercourse waits until a committed marriage or partnership. So does that mean anything else goes beforehand? (I’m not suggesting you were saying that. Meg). It’s just I know that’s how a lot of people see it, as forestgrey points out. It’s interesting that the discussion turns so much to the physical aspects, no doubt mirroring the focus of sex education programs in schools. And where’s the emotional intimacy mentioned? Thank you Pierre for bringing this up. Love your work!!

The emphasis is so much on the physical and meanwhile we live in a society that has no idea about courting and the fun of anticipation and building desire. The closest I’ve seen of that was in the first Twilight movie. I believe that young people and men in particular should be encouraged to watch that film. The lesson within is that desire and trust can build when our physical urges can’t be immediately gratified and that can be a beautiful thing. Conversely, being physically intimate too soon can destroy emotional intimacy which usually takes longer to establish, and ideally should underpin a sexual relationship. (Just look at the plots of any good dramas where the romantic union is held off as long as possible so as to keep the tension and ratings high). I believe there needs to be more of that encouraged and lessons given in courtship.

I’m not against sex before marriage or civil union however. I’m for the idea of learning about ourselves and others and promoting respect and love and the sorts of principles that Pierre mentioned. I believe that people are often mistakenly trying to meet their unmet emotional needs through physical ones and this doesn’t work. If they knew how to meet their emotional needs in a more healthy/direct way, it might also be easier to abstain from sex. And if the real benefits of abstinence were promoted a lot (and this would require some doing as the media constantly bombard us with sexual messages), this might help too. I respect mrg’s work in this area. The fact that he is redressing the imbalance by making sex an acceptable and important topic to discuss, is very commendable.

I also like how mrg has mentioned the spiritual impact of sexual unions. I think more needs to be said about this and what happens emotionally during sex. Not enough is said on this topic and many young people find they are emotionally unready or not mature enough to deal with the ramifications of the sexual act. Sex and morality involves a lot more than the physical act/s.

Anyway, that’s some of what I think.

Blessings,

Ann Maree

Hi Meg

Its a hard topic for sure with much to consider.

I think your reference here to each working out his/her own salvation is rather nice. I like it because it highlights the need to consider individual variations rather than just adopting a one-size-fits-all code of conduct. I guess the tendency to generalise is natural when looking at morality codes. Far from being a cop out, I believe your comment above is a good thing to remember. There will always be a need for flexible or variable interpretations of behavioural codes and I believe that’s OK. Perhaps that sounds permissive to some but I think that’s where the challenge is. Working things out ourselves according to our own circumstances is much harder than if we are told what to do. I mean – don’t get me wrong – I agree there needs to be a lot of discussion about this and some guidelines to help clear the confusion. However, the overarching principle of being loving is surely of the highest importance. That and not losing sight of the people who are trying their best to do the right thing. So then it’s a question of what is ‘right’ for each person. And to find that requires some deep soul searching and reflection. This is not necessarily an easy process, especially in a complex area such as this.

Blessings,

Ann Maree

If a person had three/five monogamous relationships in their life time would they be labelled immoral, promiscuous, licentious, depraved, wicked ( |( 0:) >)

If a person had three/five monogamous relationships in their life time would they be labelled immoral, promiscuous, licentious, depraved, wicked ( |( 0:) >)

You’re baiting me on purpose, aren’t you….?

If somebody has 5 monogamous relationships in their life and each of those relationships was started by cheating on the one before, then of course they’re immoral.

If it’s through death or divorce (as a last option) then no it’s not.

But without appropriate sets of ethics/morals (which was the point of starting this thread) we have no way to distinguish between the two scenarios of described.

Your turn!! :bigsmile: :bigsmile: