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mrg
 
Joined in 2010
April 10, 2010, 6:51 pm

I know many of you have had horrible experiences with church and quite rightly have no desire to set foot in one again.


I also sense that there is a life giving, deep spirituality amongst the GLBT community, or at very least a hunger to discover the “life to the full” that Jesus talks about.


I could be very wrong about this next point, but I also get the feeling that if you’re from the GLBT community and want to learn more about faith and discipleship, your only options are to either hide who you are and go to a church with the traditional view of homosexuality, or go to an affirming church that may make sexuality the point of every discussion.


Here’s a few questions that I’m keen to hear your answers on:


1. Is there much opportunity for you in the traditional church to experience discipleship/mentoring in which you can be honest about who you are?


2. Is there much opportunity for you in the GLBT community to experience discipleship/mentoring in which you don’t have to talk about your sexuality all the time, but can focus on being a child of God and what it means to follow Jesus?


3. What sort of things would you really like, but haven’t been able to find, that would help you in your walk of faith?


4. How could you be best equipped to reach your friends and family in the GLBT community who have yet to hear the gospel?


Looking forward to hearing your response!


mrg


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iplantolive
 
Joined in 2008
April 10, 2010, 11:53 pm

From my Pentecostal experience, there was never any room for negotiation with the church or their pastors about LGBT discipleship because it is still considered an abomination, and therefore, to be gay is to be in sin and outside of Gods fellowship unless you changed your ways, which we know leads to unhealthy outcomes.


From my Anglican experience, it depended on the local church and minister in charge. If they were enlightened about LGBT issues, then there was some support and discipleship from the various clergy and/or senior lay persons. This was very much on the condition that your sexual orientation was not actively promoted within the congregation. The whole support structure seemed to be very heterosexual biased with the traditional values surrounding family and marriage dominating the ministry program.


In terms of opportunities for discipleship or mentoring in the LGBT community, I think freedom2b[e] definately provides that, once you have addressed the various issues that need to be resolved in your life surrounding faith and/or sexuality. You are right in saying that many of us have had quite negative experiences with traditional churches, so to find a non-judgemental, non-Christian organisation such as f2b is refreshing, and allows people to build connections and dialogue with like-minded people without fear of being labelled or stereotyped, which generally happens in many churches where there is little or no understanding of sexual orientation.


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Ann Maree
Chief Moderator
Joined in 2008
April 11, 2010, 7:37 pm

Hi mrg


My experiences with trying to engage with pentecostal churches as openly gay were met with rejection. As per your perceptions, I was advised to either come along and not tell anyone I was gay because we “love the sinner, hate the sin” or not attend. When I attempted to offer alternative readings of scripture to support my belief that homosexuality is not a sin, the pastor was not able to hear it. I felt quite strongly about my need to be living openly and not excluded from normal conversations about home life etc and also wanted to be in the worship ministry. I couldn’t go to a church and not use my gifts. So with a broken heart, (there’d been a lot of rejection on other issues before that, and this was the last straw), I gave up. I decided I’d worked too hard on my self esteem to expose myself to further rejection or expectations that I be half a citizen.


I did attend a gay affirming church for a while. It was a combination of factors that made this a short-term option, i.e. really bad music, old-fashioned style of service and distance to the church. They were very kind, good people however although the LGBT stuff was perhaps over-emphasised. (Understandable in some ways to counteract the rejection in other churches).


In regards to your questions, I’m wondering how you define discipleship/mentoring. I’m guessing you mean fellowship or support from church members.


So the short answers for the moment are:


1. No not many opportunities to have discipleship in churches and be honest about being gay. That said, I am aware that Rob Buckingham’s churches in Melbourne are now accepting which is great….. I just can’t bring myself to go. It’s like the damage has been too much and it’s too late for me now.


2. Not many opportunities In the LGBT community either. A lot of gay friends walk away if christianity is even mentioned in passing.. My spirituality has evolved to include other philosophies. This site has connected me to some like-minded others however I don’t identify myself as Christian anymore. I believe in God as much as ever but think the concept of Jesus is way bigger than what the Christian model offers. This presents another challenge in my finding more interfaith perspectives.


3. I would LOVE to find mature and loving interfaith people as mentors. I imagine us sharing ideas in a supportive way… Having collective prayer/meditation and worship would be a further bonus. Spiritual workshops and retreats would be invaluable… I want to continue studying different faiths and find the strengths and commonalities between them while making the most of personal development opportunities. I get excited about the notion of building unity between faiths and would love to have opportunities to be involved in that.


4. I no longer believe in the need to evangelise or bring anyone under the restriction of one religion. I love the Dalai Lama’s response to an enthusiastic young man who expressed his desire to become a buddhist. The D.L said: “Oh dont do that. Just be kind to others.” I love that because he makes the point that all religions are limited and there are broader universal principles that are beyond these and bring us closer to God. I believe that if I’m happy and reaching my full potential as a loving person that this brings love into others’ lives while permitting them to seek similar opportunities.


Thanks for your enquiry into our experiences and needs in this area. It will be interesing to hear the input from others at f2b too..


Blessings,


Ann Maree


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forestgrey
Chapter Leader
Joined in 2008
April 11, 2010, 8:24 pm

Can I add to the “welcomes” on your other thread. Some immediate, off-the-top-of-the-head answers to your questions:


1. Is there much opportunity for you in the traditional church to experience discipleship/mentoring in which you can be honest about who you are?


Not that I’ve found. I have a long Baptist background, followed by 20+ years in an A.O.G. church, but now back in a fairly conservative Baptist Church about 4 years. In both my current church & my former church it has been a case of I’ve had no reason to tell and have never been asked. I don’t see any point in walking in waving a rainbow flag. It’s not my style.


But as soon as I am asked, or find a relevant context to say, I am ready to enlighten them. And feel well-equipped to handle any flack. (And quite a bit of that ‘readiness’ is thanks to Freedom2b.) We have established that remaining gracious (rather than attacking back) is the most effective strategy. And knowing that probably the biggest problem is their unknowing ignorance, helps handle the issue. (I don’t mean that perjoratively.)


mrg, as Anthony and others have often said, we are all on a journey. I am pleased that you are with us. Even if your journey is a bit different, I think we are now on adjoining lanes of life’s highway.


The churches available to me which I know are accepting of gay people are either:

>>> (a) more liberal (perhaps, better – less evangelical) in their theology than I feel comfortable with; or

>>> (b) too liturgical for this non-conformist (no matter how hard I try to have communication between God and me through liturgy, it doesn’t work!!); or

>>> (c) too gay – i.e., the “we are gay” or the “we welcome gays” part of their message seems to take precedent over all else.


So, really, I have never been properly put to the test in respect to your question. I can, however, “experience discipleship/mentoring”. It’s just the ‘be honest’ bit has never been tested. Probably strange, but true.


Have never thought about it until now, but maybe they (current & former church) shy away from being honest about their atittude &/or of expecting gays to be honest??? Interesting thought? Must explore that more.


2. Is there much opportunity for you in the GLBT community to experience discipleship/mentoring in which you don’t have to talk about your sexuality all the time, but can focus on being a child of God and what it means to follow Jesus?


Again, not that I’ve found. There are some explicit Christian gay groups around (mostly associated within a denomination – either formally recognized or informally tolerated, even accepted). But, again, – in Sydney at least – not of the evangelical/pentecostal bent where I feel comfortable. Whilst such a support group would be good, it should only operate as an adjunct to local church involvement – not become my quasi-church.


Freedom2b’s charter doesn’t really extend into running that sort of group.


3. What sort of things would you really like, but haven’t been able to find, that would help you in your walk of faith?


Yair, a periodic bible study fellowship group of like-minded bods would help. BUT, being able to feel fully-accepted and comfortable and able to participate within a local church congreation is the ideal.


4. How could you be best equipped to reach your friends and family in the GLBT community who have yet to hear the gospel? Sections of the church have so damaged the church’s message and name through their homophobic rantings over the years (and continue to), that it’s really hard to break through. We need to divorce the gospel message and the reality of faith from organized Christianity. It’s really how we live our lives and demonstrate the outcome of our faith that matters and can break through. Despite mass evangelism, radio/TV programmes, flyers, books, etc., etc., the research shows that over 80% of people come to faith through the witness of a family member or friend who took an interest, initiated a range of conversations, and started bringing the person to church meetings. That’s how I do it with my non-Christian gay friends. But, it’s hard!


mrg, as Anthony and others have often said, we are all on a journey. I am pleased that you are with us. Even if your journey is a bit different, I think we are now on adjoining lanes of life’s highway.


Bless ya!


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Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
April 11, 2010, 11:06 pm

Everyone here has given great responses…….because of time I’m going to be really brief…..unusual for me….hehe.


For those who still have a faith or want to come back into it…..I think what all of us want (speaking on behalf of F2B members I think)……….we want to be a part of a church community



  1. Where our sexual orientation is not made an issue

  2. Where we never have to stop and think “I can’t say that about myself”

  3. Where we are not segregated off to a separate group

  4. Where our faith and the life we live is what determines whether our gifts are used in the church community or not…..not our orientation

  5. Where we are not treated as special but normal


Regarding mentoring and discipleship…….I think in some ways this happens naturally in Freedom 2 b[e].


Who we are, what we do and the way we do it……….are models for individuals who join the F2B community either online or a chapter meetings.


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Ann Maree
Chief Moderator
Joined in 2008
April 12, 2010, 10:06 am

Hi avb


I agree with the content of your numbered points… Basically, LGBT people who want to go to church need to be regarded as an integral part of their faith community without distinction on the basis of sexuality. I need to stress however that some of us here, including myself, still have strong faiths, and want to be part of a community, just not a christian church. Others again may be happy with their faith and going it alone. What you’ve said no doubt applies to those who want to maintain a pentecostal, charasmatic and/or evangelical model, and if so, I hope they find what they need. I just want to make the point that there are many ways to express faith besides this..


Regarding mentoring and discipleship, I would welcome a discussion that explores what these actually are. I’m still unclear.


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Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
April 12, 2010, 11:40 am

yes you have made a valid point here Ann Maree and something we respect here at freedom 2 b[e].


are you asking me……others or MRG or clarification on discipleship/mentoring.


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Ann Maree
Chief Moderator
Joined in 2008
April 12, 2010, 1:17 pm

Thanks avb. Good to clarify what I thought you perhaps meant. And yes, I’m asking you, mrg and anyone who wants to comment about their ideas on discipleship and mentoring. :)


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mrg
 
Joined in 2010
April 12, 2010, 10:12 pm

Thanks for the replies so far everybody. It seems that what most GLBT folk want is the same as what most straight people want – still don’t see why we have such a big gulf between communities. Anyway, I digress…


About discipleship and mentoring, I was thinking along the lines of somebody to walk the journey with you who you can bounce ideas off, pray with, who can lead you into a deeper expression and experience of faith, equip you, help you discover your gifts and how to use them in ministry, who you can argue with, express doubts too, confess safely to, and so on.


While some people seem to be able to do this on their own, I think most of us need others along for the journey. And real faith in Jesus is a community faith – not a solo flight. We worship and serve together. Of course, faith in community is messy (as you well know) but I still hold on to the hope that we can make it work with God’s help.


Does that make any sense?


mrg


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Ann Maree
Chief Moderator
Joined in 2008
April 12, 2010, 10:52 pm

Hi mrg


Yes, it seems we’re all human afterall with the same human needs as our hetero counterparts! :)


I like your definition of discipleship and mentoring. It sounds nice.


As for the community aspect of faith, yes I need community. But what about people like John the Baptist and those who wandered the desert without the types of community you are perhaps referring to? Was their faith less strong because they didn’t have pastors around?


Just some thoughts…


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mrg
 
Joined in 2010
April 12, 2010, 11:38 pm

Good thoughts Ann Maree!


I said we need to have people around, not pastors!! Who’d want those weird types?!!


But seriously, I think the presence of us pastors sometimes gives others an excuse for not fulfilling their part of God’s call. “The pastor gets paid to do it, so I don’t have to” is an attitude that comes through time and again. It needs to be all of us, walking and learning together. And if it’s done with integrity and honesty, it’s always a two way thing – everyone benefits.


John the Baptist is a great character. I would have loved to have met him in the flesh. I reckon he would have been an intense and crazy type, but with eyes that could bore right into your soul. You’d know that he spoke truth.


Anyway, we don’t know a whole lot about his history, but it is thought he grew up in the Essene community. A devout section of the Jewish people that are thought to be responsible for the Dead Sea Scrolls. Community was an important part of their life, and even though he obviously spent time on retreat in the desert John went on to gather his own band of disciples. I reckon he would have had his own smaller group of trusted friends in the same way Jesus did.


I’m starting to preach again. Sorry about that! But hope this helps a little…


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Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
April 13, 2010, 1:28 am

i think my favourite quote might be relevant here


its called

THE GIFT OF ALIENATION


‘People who exist at the margins of society are very much like Alice in Wonderland. They are not required to make the tough decision to risk their lives by embarking on an adventure of self-discovery. They have already been thrust beyond the city’s walls that keep ordinary people at a safe distance from the unknown. For at least some outsiders, “alienation” has destroyed traditional presumptions of identity and opened up the mythic hero’s path to the possibility of discovery. What outsiders discover in their adventures on the other side of the looking glass is the courage to repudiate self-contempt and recognise their “alienation” as a precious gift of freedom from arbitrary norms that they did not make and did not sanction. At the moment a person questions the validity of the rules, the victim is no longer a victim.’


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Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
April 13, 2010, 10:04 am

who wrote that AVB?


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Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
April 13, 2010, 1:05 pm

Its by Jamake Highwater from his book ‘The Mythology of Transgression – Homosexuality as a Metaphor’


I love this quote..…I originally read in Christian De La Heurta’s book “Coming Out Spiritually – the next step”……it was like the most perfect, succinct and powerful description of my lifes journey I’d ever read. It was like a revelation. Then I tracked down and actual copy of Jamake Highwater’s book….‘The Mythology of Transgression – Homosexuality as a Metaphor’ ..which was good…..but the quote was the gem of the whole work.


Jamake High Water was



  1. A North American Indian

  2. Adopted

  3. Gay


as he mentions in the intro that was three strikes against him…….he knew quite profoundly what it was like to be an outsider……and that if we follow the journey to its ultimate conclusion and resolution…….we get to experience a liberation only a few on this planet get to enjoy.


For those who are not sure what the mythic hero’s path is there is a good description of it in Caroline Myss’s book Sacred Contracts


The archetypal Hero’s Journey described by Joseph Campbell “The Hero with a Thousand Faces’, Sir James Fazer’s ‘the Golden Bough’ and others always begins with a process of separation or alienation from the tribe, followed by a series of difficult challenges that the hero must meet alone. The journey culminates in a descent into the abyss of self-doubt and a loss of faith in the Divine, but then results in a vital transformation and a renewal of trust, which in turn leads to a revelation of some new knowledge, insight or wisdom. The hero then returns to the tribe and imparts this insight- or tires to, since hero’s like prophets are not always welcome in their hometown. Their presence unsettles us and makes us aware that other truths and lives exist beyond our physical routines.


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Ann Maree
Chief Moderator
Joined in 2008
April 13, 2010, 2:27 pm

avb, I’m a big fan of Caroline Myss. The Judge Judy of intuitives. :)


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Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
April 13, 2010, 4:39 pm

Thanks!


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mrg
 
Joined in 2010
April 13, 2010, 9:33 pm

Interesting quote AVB.


I find myself both agreeing and disagreeing though.


Yes, on the margins, we discover a new side of ourselves that perhaps we’ve hidden or run from. In the loneliness and isolation we’re forced to face the reality of who we are. Some accept it and some don’t.


In that sense, alienation can be a gift in which we discover things we wouldn’t otherwise.


But I don’t think anybody is meant to exist there long term. In tribal rites of passage, children were sent out of the village to a remote place, tested, and then returned as adults, discovering new found strengths and freedoms. But they were never left in the wilderness. I don’t think anybody is meant to be.


Despite the pain, the frustration, and the arguments, I still think we’re wired to grow and live in community. ‘Love God and love others’ was described as the most important teachings – and we can only do them effectively in community.


Thoughts?


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Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
April 13, 2010, 10:33 pm

yep….thank God for most of us it only a season in our lives. But we find treasures in our darkness we can’t find in the light.


I think that many of us who have come from church backgrounds have an inbuilt sense of community. Some people try and find that in the gay ‘scene’……only to find it quite unsatisfying even soul destroying. then some of us find the gay community and that meets many of our needs. Many of us need that sense of connection with people we feel safe with, can relate to and be ourselves with. Hence the gay ghettos that exist in many cities.


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iplantolive
 
Joined in 2008
April 13, 2010, 10:39 pm

I think anyone who attempts a “solo flight” in this world without some discipleship and/or mentoring in their life is probably missing out on heaps of growth opportunities! I know I’ve tried to do it, and it’s a very lonely journey. In terms of personal and spiritual growth, I think it needs to be a two-way street. There has to be benefits to both mentor and mentee. Very much like cultivating a friendship based on mutual respect for the other persons gifts and talents. Being able to share in both the good and bad times. I know this particularly now in my current circumstances! Whoever said that life was never meant to be a bed of roses was absolutely spot-on.


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Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
April 15, 2010, 2:42 pm

avb, I’m a big fan of Caroline Myss. The Judge Judy of intuitives. :)


Can’t stand Judge Judy…….hehe. I like Caroline Myss…..but actually couldn’t finish the book……too complex for me. That quote though came at a time I needed that insight……it wasn’t too many pages on I stopped reading.


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