From my Pentecostal experience, there was never any room for negotiation with the church or their pastors about LGBT discipleship because it is still considered an abomination, and therefore, to be gay is to be in sin and outside of Gods fellowship unless you changed your ways, which we know leads to unhealthy outcomes.

From my Anglican experience, it depended on the local church and minister in charge. If they were enlightened about LGBT issues, then there was some support and discipleship from the various clergy and/or senior lay persons. This was very much on the condition that your sexual orientation was not actively promoted within the congregation. The whole support structure seemed to be very heterosexual biased with the traditional values surrounding family and marriage dominating the ministry program.

In terms of opportunities for discipleship or mentoring in the LGBT community, I think freedom2b[e] definately provides that, once you have addressed the various issues that need to be resolved in your life surrounding faith and/or sexuality. You are right in saying that many of us have had quite negative experiences with traditional churches, so to find a non-judgemental, non-Christian organisation such as f2b is refreshing, and allows people to build connections and dialogue with like-minded people without fear of being labelled or stereotyped, which generally happens in many churches where there is little or no understanding of sexual orientation.

Can I add to the “welcomes” on your other thread. Some immediate, off-the-top-of-the-head answers to your questions:

1. Is there much opportunity for you in the traditional church to experience discipleship/mentoring in which you can be honest about who you are?

Not that I’ve found. I have a long Baptist background, followed by 20+ years in an A.O.G. church, but now back in a fairly conservative Baptist Church about 4 years. In both my current church & my former church it has been a case of I’ve had no reason to tell and have never been asked. I don’t see any point in walking in waving a rainbow flag. It’s not my style.

But as soon as I am asked, or find a relevant context to say, I am ready to enlighten them. And feel well-equipped to handle any flack. (And quite a bit of that ‘readiness’ is thanks to Freedom2b.) We have established that remaining gracious (rather than attacking back) is the most effective strategy. And knowing that probably the biggest problem is their unknowing ignorance, helps handle the issue. (I don’t mean that perjoratively.)

mrg, as Anthony and others have often said, we are all on a journey. I am pleased that you are with us. Even if your journey is a bit different, I think we are now on adjoining lanes of life’s highway.

The churches available to me which I know are accepting of gay people are either:

>>> (a) more liberal (perhaps, better – less evangelical) in their theology than I feel comfortable with; or

>>> (b) too liturgical for this non-conformist (no matter how hard I try to have communication between God and me through liturgy, it doesn’t work!!); or

>>> (c) too gay – i.e., the “we are gay” or the “we welcome gays” part of their message seems to take precedent over all else.

So, really, I have never been properly put to the test in respect to your question. I can, however, “experience discipleship/mentoring”. It’s just the ‘be honest’ bit has never been tested. Probably strange, but true.

Have never thought about it until now, but maybe they (current & former church) shy away from being honest about their atittude &/or of expecting gays to be honest??? Interesting thought? Must explore that more.

2. Is there much opportunity for you in the GLBT community to experience discipleship/mentoring in which you don’t have to talk about your sexuality all the time, but can focus on being a child of God and what it means to follow Jesus?

Again, not that I’ve found. There are some explicit Christian gay groups around (mostly associated within a denomination – either formally recognized or informally tolerated, even accepted). But, again, – in Sydney at least – not of the evangelical/pentecostal bent where I feel comfortable. Whilst such a support group would be good, it should only operate as an adjunct to local church involvement – not become my quasi-church.

Freedom2b’s charter doesn’t really extend into running that sort of group.

3. What sort of things would you really like, but haven’t been able to find, that would help you in your walk of faith?

Yair, a periodic bible study fellowship group of like-minded bods would help. BUT, being able to feel fully-accepted and comfortable and able to participate within a local church congreation is the ideal.

4. How could you be best equipped to reach your friends and family in the GLBT community who have yet to hear the gospel? Sections of the church have so damaged the church’s message and name through their homophobic rantings over the years (and continue to), that it’s really hard to break through. We need to divorce the gospel message and the reality of faith from organized Christianity. It’s really how we live our lives and demonstrate the outcome of our faith that matters and can break through. Despite mass evangelism, radio/TV programmes, flyers, books, etc., etc., the research shows that over 80% of people come to faith through the witness of a family member or friend who took an interest, initiated a range of conversations, and started bringing the person to church meetings. That’s how I do it with my non-Christian gay friends. But, it’s hard!

mrg, as Anthony and others have often said, we are all on a journey. I am pleased that you are with us. Even if your journey is a bit different, I think we are now on adjoining lanes of life’s highway.

Bless ya!

Hi avb

I agree with the content of your numbered points… Basically, LGBT people who want to go to church need to be regarded as an integral part of their faith community without distinction on the basis of sexuality. I need to stress however that some of us here, including myself, still have strong faiths, and want to be part of a community, just not a christian church. Others again may be happy with their faith and going it alone. What you’ve said no doubt applies to those who want to maintain a pentecostal, charasmatic and/or evangelical model, and if so, I hope they find what they need. I just want to make the point that there are many ways to express faith besides this..

Regarding mentoring and discipleship, I would welcome a discussion that explores what these actually are. I’m still unclear.

Thanks avb. Good to clarify what I thought you perhaps meant. And yes, I’m asking you, mrg and anyone who wants to comment about their ideas on discipleship and mentoring.

Hi mrg

Yes, it seems we’re all human afterall with the same human needs as our hetero counterparts!

I like your definition of discipleship and mentoring. It sounds nice.

As for the community aspect of faith, yes I need community. But what about people like John the Baptist and those who wandered the desert without the types of community you are perhaps referring to? Was their faith less strong because they didn’t have pastors around?

Just some thoughts…

i think my favourite quote might be relevant here

its called

THE GIFT OF ALIENATION

‘People who exist at the margins of society are very much like Alice in Wonderland. They are not required to make the tough decision to risk their lives by embarking on an adventure of self-discovery. They have already been thrust beyond the city’s walls that keep ordinary people at a safe distance from the unknown. For at least some outsiders, “alienation” has destroyed traditional presumptions of identity and opened up the mythic hero’s path to the possibility of discovery. What outsiders discover in their adventures on the other side of the looking glass is the courage to repudiate self-contempt and recognise their “alienation” as a precious gift of freedom from arbitrary norms that they did not make and did not sanction. At the moment a person questions the validity of the rules, the victim is no longer a victim.’

Its by Jamake Highwater from his book ‘The Mythology of Transgression – Homosexuality as a Metaphor’

I love this quote..…I originally read in Christian De La Heurta’s book “Coming Out Spiritually – the next step”……it was like the most perfect, succinct and powerful description of my lifes journey I’d ever read. It was like a revelation. Then I tracked down and actual copy of Jamake Highwater’s book….‘The Mythology of Transgression – Homosexuality as a Metaphor’ ..which was good…..but the quote was the gem of the whole work.

Jamake High Water was

1. A North American Indian


2. Adopted


3. Gay

as he mentions in the intro that was three strikes against him…….he knew quite profoundly what it was like to be an outsider……and that if we follow the journey to its ultimate conclusion and resolution…….we get to experience a liberation only a few on this planet get to enjoy.

For those who are not sure what the mythic hero’s path is there is a good description of it in Caroline Myss’s book Sacred Contracts

The archetypal Hero’s Journey described by Joseph Campbell “The Hero with a Thousand Faces’, Sir James Fazer’s ‘the Golden Bough’ and others always begins with a process of separation or alienation from the tribe, followed by a series of difficult challenges that the hero must meet alone. The journey culminates in a descent into the abyss of self-doubt and a loss of faith in the Divine, but then results in a vital transformation and a renewal of trust, which in turn leads to a revelation of some new knowledge, insight or wisdom. The hero then returns to the tribe and imparts this insight- or tires to, since hero’s like prophets are not always welcome in their hometown. Their presence unsettles us and makes us aware that other truths and lives exist beyond our physical routines.

Thanks!

yep….thank God for most of us it only a season in our lives. But we find treasures in our darkness we can’t find in the light.

I think that many of us who have come from church backgrounds have an inbuilt sense of community. Some people try and find that in the gay ‘scene’……only to find it quite unsatisfying even soul destroying. then some of us find the gay community and that meets many of our needs. Many of us need that sense of connection with people we feel safe with, can relate to and be ourselves with. Hence the gay ghettos that exist in many cities.

avb, I’m a big fan of Caroline Myss. The Judge Judy of intuitives.

Can’t stand Judge Judy…….hehe. I like Caroline Myss…..but actually couldn’t finish the book……too complex for me. That quote though came at a time I needed that insight……it wasn’t too many pages on I stopped reading.