Never in my wildest dreams: Journey of a boi 19 to a man 40

I'm not so much afraid of the rejection if I come out to this guy because if I did then I'm fairly sure of the response I would get. The church I previously attended teaches that gay is bad and they generally excommunicate all gay people if they out themselves. My response was very positive and I certainly didn't include any negative elements that could indicate I am unhappy with life after leaving the church. I'm not in any hurry to jump back into corporate worship either. Anyways, will see how he responds. Here's hoping that I can make a difference to the prevailing attitude.

Hi mobileguy

I like what avb said in his last response. I think I misunderstood what you meant and am not sure what your main concerns are. I guess I'm wondering what you are hoping for with this guy or church.

Wishing you all the best,

Ann Maree

I got an email reply today. He congratulated me on my achievements that I mentioned in my initial response to him. He spoke briefly about his church and family life and the fact that he had changed churches as he didn't believe in one particular doctrinal teaching (long story). He asked me about my spiritual walk and how my career is going. Nothing really sinister here Maybe I was a bit stressed out and trying to read things into it that I shouldn't have. I'll reply to his email as I did before, again not mentioning anything about my sexual orientation, unless it is specifically brought up during the course of email communications. I'm comfortable with that outcome

Hi mobileguy

I'm glad things seem to be working out with the email communications. From my own experiences, it takes a while to trust others and be comfortable, especially when they're from church backgrounds. The decision of whether to disclose sexuality or not, and the actual process of disclosure if decided upon, is not an easy one. I think this is compicated by my belief that sexuality is such an integral part of ourselves and yet at the same time, it's only one area (i.e. there's more to us than that) and in some ways a private one. There's so many factors to consider and everyone is different in terms of views on this and how they express themselves.

Anyway, all the best as things unfold,

Ann Maree

Yep, sometimes it is difficult to ascertain just how much (and when) information we should give out. Anthony and I have seperately discussed the process of disclosing my orientation to others. This guy would be in the high risk category so I won't be disclosing anytime soon. The advice not to be judgemental I think will stand me in good stead if an opportunity came up to talk about sexual orientation in general. I think there are also assumptions that have been made by both of us (consciously or unconsciously) that there will always be that divide between us doctrinally about a specific issue that I can't mention here on the forum.

My philosophical side of me says that there is always a solution to every problem and I'm often guilty as charged for being an eternal optimist, but in the real world, where so many factors come into play, it can be a different story. I guess we would all like to be able to see into the future and anticipate the highs and lows of life, but I know I can't do that, so I have to plan as best as I can, and make the most of what I have been given and hopefully use my skills and talents to help others in the best way possible. I've probably gotten off track here so I'll see how things pan out and hope that something good comes out of our dialogue.

I think its always important when communicating with people from our past to consider who they were and they way they thought back when we knew them 5, 10, 15 or 20 years ago might not be where they are today........like us.....they may be more enlightened and have moved on. I find that people who are still the same with the same beliefs are usually the exception more than the rule. Whilst many may still not be at a point of fully embracing LGBT people they have shifted.

I see our role as taking them further along the continuum......see my model here http://gayambassador2.blogspot.com/

Hi mobileguy and avb,

Yeah it's true that just as we've changed it's likely that others have as well. That's encouraging to remember.

Avb, I had a look at your link above and the ideas in your presentation have overlapped with other thoughts I've had. I like your suggestion of creating 'new spaces' for Christians and GLBTIQ to meet. I think this is important for letting go of the past and faclitating the formation of new relationships. It had recently occurred to me that if the emphasis was always on members of our community to make all the effort by going to church, this would be imbalanced and unfair. As well as that, it could make an already vulnerable minority even more fragile.

So in terms of creating new spaces, I've had an idea. What about Christians doing some outreach, coming out on 'placement' or work experience to see the everyday experiences of someone who identifies as GLBTIQ? For those who are interested in work experience anyway, this could be a great way of satisfying 2 goals at the same time. I'd volunteer to have someone spend the day or week with me and am happy to talk about my experiences as a lesbian and answer any questions.
What do you think?

I'm wondering what other ideas there are for creating these new spaces. The aim is to facilitate dialogue that increases understanding and moves toward unity.

Blessings,

Ann Maree

I received another email from my friend a few days ago. With the benefit of previous discussions and posts about this matter, and without being judgemental, I thought the content was pretty much designed to sow the seeds of doubt about my decision to leave the church. I won't divulge the exact details here. His doctrinal beliefs have not changed either, so I guess that makes him the exception rather than the rule unfortunately. While I'm happy to engage in dialogue not associated with church matters, I feel this is going to be a fruitless exercise should I continue the emails. I'm half tempted to tell him I'm gay and hope that it changes the direction of the discourse but I know that disclosing sexual orientation in anger or fear is not the right decision to make. Please pray for me so that I can be at peace with this.

I'm sorry that the conversation has taken a direction that only confirms your original feelings.
I don't think that coming out to this person will improve matters and will only leave you open to being hurt.
Perhaps you could just politely end the discussion, let the guy know you don't intend to return to church and you're glad that he thought of you, at least and leave it at that.

sometimes reconnection with people from the past like this mobile guy can trigger the subconscious trauma we went through years ago.

I"ve had a person recently wanting to dialogue with me via email. It was pretty obvious his mind was made up on the issue of homosexuality......and wanted to me to explain theologically how I've come to this position......and debate me publicly.

I said no.

My choice.....waste of time and energy....why would I debate back and forth about something I'm totally convinced of with someone who believes the opposite. Life is too short.

so your choice who you engage with my friend.....and no one will judge you if yo say no.

Thanks guys. Yeah, I think I'll just politely end the discussion and wish him well in his journey. It's gonna be hard to do this as I feel that he'll attempt to contact me again sometime down the track. Now just gotta find the right words to say without being rude I guess.

there is the challenge......polite, respectful, honest yet direct.

I guess you could always let him know that you are living as an openly gay man these days......the issue of your sexuality and faith is resolved. If he'd like to connect with you as an accepting friend then the doors are open. If he feels that you are lost and need converting then there is no point in continuing the communication......you can wish him well and God bless.

is that too in your face.

Yep, polite, respectful, honest but direct.

Something happened to me last night while walking home ... while sheltering from the rain under an awning, a young twentysomething guy who was also there started to make small conversation with me ... after a short while he casually asked ... take me home with you? ...

I was shocked. My reflex response was ... I'm not that sort of person ...

What had I really said? Had I just denied my gay identity? Had I just assumed he wanted a "good time"? What did he really want? All these questions racing through my mind trying to make some logical sense for my answer.

Needless to say, sleep was rather difficult for me last night, and when I did get to sleep, the fire alarm went off at 5am in the morning.

After I had calmed down, 5 familiar words came to me that helped make the jigsaw puzzle fit. My morality is a choice (but my sexual orientation isn't).

The guy did actually apologise to me, but I couldn't help but think about his reasons for asking. He may not have been gay at all. Maybe he just wanted some companionship for the night. It certainly put my moral credentials on the spot, whether I liked it or not. As for the issue of my gay identity being possibly denied, I think I can safely say that I know who I am, why I said what I said, and that my value and belief systems have supported me in my time of need.

wow, I think something like that would have caught me by surprise too. I like how you resolved it, with the thought your morality is a choice but your orientation is not.

Sorry that you didn't sleep so well afterwards though.

an interesting random encounter...

It's a challenge to think about how we could respond to such a situation. WWJD?

What would Jesus do (WWJD)? I reckon he would say something alone the lines of "My home is not of this world" and then proceed to tell the guy about how he could enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Mind you, if I said that to the guy he'd probably think I was a fruitcake. I've been called a lot worse though. But yes, it is a challenge when someone propositions you and you're not expecting it. The other side to this coin is that I've rarely thought of myself as outwardly attractive in one sense, something that I know is not particularly good for my self-esteem. Sure, I like to dress smartly and I'm always conscious of my fashion statements but I don't go out of my way to somehow "flaunt" myself. I think a key lesson for me out of all of this is that we are all attractive in our own ways, and it's not necessarily what's on the outside that's important, but our attitude and heart towards others that truely reflects who we are.

Hi mobileguy,

It's an interesting situation to ponder from a few angles. I agree: we are all attractive in one way or another and something about you was undoubtedly attractive to that guy.

In regards to what Jesus might do, I imagine he'd look beyond the statement made to underlying needs. That's hard to do though in a chance meeting when you're taken by surprise. Those needs are more likely to be discovered once rapport is established and this isn't necessarily an instant thing. I remember once nursing a loveable scrap of a teenager who used to make advances toward myself and most of the female staff. She was aware that sexualising was easier for her to do than expressing how she really felt. Gradually, through encouragement and some honest but gentle feedback, she was shown how her comments made others uncomfortable, creating distance rather than the intimacy she craved. Over time she established enough trust with a few of us to express her true self and know that she was safe, accepted and valued. The inappropriate behaviours became less and less, others drew closer to her and she achieved some of the intimacy she was seeking.

Sometimes expressing how we truly feel helps another find more of their true self. And maybe you did this for that man in your encounter, mobileguy?

Yeah, you're probably right Ann Maree. Who could resist a lovable orangutan like me

Your story about the teenager struck a chord. It's sad when people don't for whatever reason express their true feelings towards others. Fear of being hurt, rejected or shunned can and does drive some people to do things they ordinarily wouldn't dream of doing. The media's portrayal of sex as something to be desired at all costs is not bearing any good fruit, and intimacy gets pushed into the background. That's why I'm so grateful for safe spaces like ours for people needing healing and reconciliation.

Hi mobileguy

Yes, you make very good points about how rejection and defences can steer us away from our true selves or how we might otherwise act.

This is a great topic in and of itself, mobileguy. It's interesting to ponder on the definitions of intimacy and how the over-emphasis on sex can compromise it. Sex as a physical act alone is very different to sex as a loving expression in the context of a trusting relationship. And there are so many false and unrealistic portrayals of sex out there as well. That puts a lot of pressure on people to perform like they see in the movies. Even going back to when we had sex education at school, it was very focused on the physical mechanics while emotions were never touched on. I think that's strange given how many emotions can be triggered and involved alongide sexual relations.

Goodbye mobileguy ... Bonjour Pierre

In keeping with the French theme in my signature, I've decided to update my username.

I always knew I had French blood in me

Bonjour Pierre! Does this mark a new phase in your life ... or is it that change is as good as a holiday?

Pierre is the French version of my true name

As the French would say ... Nous révélons notre vrai moi ... which translates as "We reveal our true selves" ...

Welcome Pierre! Was wondering how long it would take for the next metamorphosis- but you've already done it!

bonjour mon ami Piere......very cute.

this is much easier for me.....every time I typed mobileguy before it would come out mobilegay.......hehe Freudian slip.